Magic Hand-waving in the Calvinist Cause (Comments)

“Arminian” has responded at SEA (Magic Hand-waving in the Calvinist Cause) to James Anderson’s second rebuttal (The Arminian Cause).  Since SEA does not allow comments, this thread will serve as a place where comments and interactions can take place.

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5 Responses

  1. Woah. Deep conversation. It’s all pretty far beyond me, but doesn’t God transcending everything prohibit the need to time travel? I don’t think God is bound by things like this.

  2. Oh I just read further…Never mind.

  3. I think a vital point that “Arminian” brings out is that Anderson has yet to address the original Arminian objection. This is common practice among Calvinists from what I have observed. They work hard to try to show that the objection falls back on the other position, and thereby avoid addressing the problem at all. I think that “Arminian” has well shown that the objection does not apply to the Arminian position, and hopefully Anderson will finally get to the task of trying to defend his own position by showing how prayer can be any kind of “cause” towards that prayer being answered, given Calvinist presuppositions (namely, exhaustive pre-determinism).

    It would also be interesting to see him try to make sense of some of the key passages in Scripture which plainly describe God as being influenced by prayers and responding to them, given those Calvinist presuppositions. In other words, it is time to put an end to the magic show and start getting real.

  4. Right on Ben. One of the concerns I have in all of this is that my basic original point, which is quite understandable and relatively simple, could easily get lost and/or overlooked because James’ argument has involved us in debate over some pretty complex issues. A number of people might feel that they do not have the background or knowledge or patience to follow the arguments along and all the back and forth. But I hope people will see that my basic original point remains unanswered. Calvinism cannot account for the Bible’s portrayal of prayer as a cause of God’s answers to prayer because it holds that God unconditionally decides all that he wants to happen and then irresistibly causes it to come to pass, including the prayer that supposedly causes him to respond to it with action that grants the request. It would be like saying that with putting a sock puppet on your hand and having the puppet ask you to do something, that the request made by the sock puppet is a cause of you doing what you had the sock puppet ask you to do. Sounds crazy! Bossman, do you see how nonsensical it is to speak of a predestoned prayer/request being the cause of a predestined granting of the prayer/request?

  5. arminian1,

    Oh absolutely. I’m 100% with you.

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