Never Really Saved to Begin With? (Part 2)

You can view Part 1 here.

Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way.  They tell us that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out from God’s book!  They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect so great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace“; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow.  Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.”  Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth.

They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood.  Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green.  John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from.  Heb 10:38, 39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened.  Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped.  2 Pet2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!!  In short they say:  If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it.  May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!

(From: Fundamental Christian Theology: A Systematic Theology, A.M. Hills [C.J. Kinne, 1931], Vol. II, pp. 266-281; as quoted in The Believers Conditional Security, by Dan Corner, pp. 673, 674)

Advertisements

13 Responses

  1. Any material from Dan Corner used to buttress one’s point will only put the one using it in a bad light. This is because of his attitude towards those in whom he critiques. For example, calling Charles Stanley, John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Dave Hunt, John Ankerberg, Norman Geisler, Billy Graham, Hank Lindstrom, Erwin Lutzer, Charles Ryrie, Chuck Smith, David Wilkerson, Hank Hanegraaff, Mark Driscoll, and James White false teachers is simply uncalled for. Calling such godly leaders false teachers makes him look look a cult leader. Now Corner may have valid points, but why use his materials if he goes to extremes in painting those he disagrees with with this brush?

  2. Any material from Dan Corner used to buttress one’s point will only put the one using it in a bad light

    Paul used a pagan poet. Does that put him in a bad light? Whatever else Corner may say, the quote above has merit.

  3. Troy,

    The first thing that needs to be pointed out is that this quote does not come from Corner. It comes from A.M Hills. It was re-printed in Corner’s book so if you have a problem with the material then you have a problem with Hills and not Corner. Secondly, though I don’t endorse Corner’s hyper-Arminianism, his book is still filled with valuable insight and is not to be entirely dismissed just because he goes over the top (in my opinion) in calling those who hold to eternal security rank heretics (though I agree that any version of OSAS that logically leads to antinomianism is extremely dangerous and potentially soul destroying doctrine). As you said, he still has “valid points.”

    I also wonder how you view those in the Calvinist camp who claim that Calvinism is just a nick name for “the gospel” and call Arminians “barely” saved if saved at all? Do you condemn their behavior in the same way you condemn Corner’s?

    At any rate, the main point is that the material is not Corner’s but Hills. I don’t have Hills’ work so I had to quote it from the re-print in Corner’s book. I could have just cited Hills as a primary source but since I don’t have Hills’ work to reference I thought that would be dishonest. Now that you realize the quote comes from Hills, and not Corner, do you still have a problem with it?

    God Bless,
    Ben

  4. Kang,

    Calvinist, Arminian, Baptist, Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Pentacostal or anyone who says:::>”….that Calvinism is just a nick name for “the gospel” and call Arminians “barely” saved if saved at all?….” should be properly rebuked, instructed, corrected and reproved sufficiently to have a change of heart and if there is no change of heart, I would hope that they, as Hymenaeus and Alexander were, would be turned over to the devil to be taught not to blaspheme God’s children Who He saved by the Blood of the Lamb as Paul wrote here:::>

    Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
    Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
    Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
    Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    Isn’t there a place in our current affairs in this world to respect others even though our views are different?

    We should first major in the majors with one another and then, if we want to, heartily disagree on minor issues?

    Doesn’t Paul’s admonition apply?

    2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
    2Co 13:2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them–
    2Co 13:3 since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.
    2Co 13:4 For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God.
    2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
    2Co 13:6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test.
    2Co 13:7 But we pray to God that you may not do wrong–not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed.
    2Co 13:8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.
    2Co 13:9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. Your restoration is what we pray for.

    When will we ever learn that some brethren are just weak, weak, weak? Is there not a man of wisdom around who can come under a weak brother and strengthen him, them?

    Whatever happened to this tenet of the Faith Paul also preached?

    Act 20:32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
    Act 20:33 I coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel.
    Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.
    Act 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.'”

    We recently had a visitor come for several days to my Church fellowship and “strengthen” the brethren among us. He said the most amazing thing. He said that before we would ever dare be so blessed as to give than to receive, we first must receive, receive, receive abundantly the Grace of God from Him and receive His gift of Righteousness. If we have not been so strengthened by His Grace and gift of Righteousness, what business is it of ours to strengthen the weak?

    I thought that was profound! You?

  5. Okay, how can you know whether you have been saved in the first place? How do you know whether you believe?

  6. Kang, it is frustrating indeed that they falsely equate grace with their teachings (TULIP). If they were right in their beliefs, then it rightly should be called the doctrines of grace. There’s just one small problem, however. These doctrines are flawed.

    I think by equating “the doctrines of grace” to be synonymous with the doctrines of Calvinism, a implication emerges to bring the unlearned to the conclusion that if you deny the doctrines of grace, you are by default denying the grace of God. To me, this is just an unfair (perhaps deceitful) caricature of the other views to choose from such as Arminian and Open Theism Theology. Moreover, it may also be an area of presuppositionalism, which is a common apologetic of Reformed theologians. Nevertheless, when presented with such a caricature of this, anyone that is unlearned and seeks to uphold the glory and grace of God will automatically pick the “doctrines of grace.” Yet, if I am not mistaken, this seems to be very close to the fallacy of the excluded middle.

    For what is worth, I thoroughly enjoyed Myth 7 of Roger Olsen’s book “Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities.” In this chapter, he convincingly shows that Arminian Theology is explicity a theology of grace.

    As for the quote, if it does come from Hills and not Corner, I do not have as big of a problem with it as I initially did but I do stand by what I said concering Corner.

  7. Good posts on the nature of salvation and whether it can be lost or not. Being Arminian I agree that salvation can be lost. I have read (and defended at times) though the idea of apostasy being without repentance. What is your view on this?

  8. Roy,

    I have read (and defended at times) though the idea of apostasy being without repentance. What is your view on this?

    I think the apostasy described in Hebrews is irrevocable while I also believe there is another apostasy that can be remedied. I deal with that in here:

    Can Apostates be Restored?

    God Bless,
    Ben

  9. Anon,

    Have you ever trusted anyone for anything? How did you know you were trusting them? Have you ever loved someone? How did you know you loved them? How did you know they loved you? If you can trust and love others and know that you trust and love them then I wonder why you would have difficulty knowing whether or not you trust and love Christ?

    God Bless,
    Ben

  10. Dan Corner and his wife are nice people. If you ever get a chance to meet them then you will see that they are really down to earth and loving. Their lifestyle reminds me of the New School Mennonites, and how they live.

    I disagree with them on a number of points, but they always treated me with grace and kindness.

    JNORM888

  11. Infact, they were the ones that gave me a bunch of casset tapes of that one conference many years ago. I put one of them online. (Arminius, the scapegoat of Calvinism).

    JNORM888

  12. JNORM888,

    I have never met Corner but my impressions of him from what I have read is that he is a man who is passionate about holiness and extremely concerned about antinomianism. I have no problem with that and I think he has done a great job in exposing the dangers of OSAS (particularly what he calls the “extreme view” which most easily leads to antinomianism). I think he goes too far when he paints those who teach OSAS as evil deceivers. He doesn’t always do this but sometimes he does. Generally, he is against the teaching and not the person (especially in his book), but sometimes his passion gets the best of him and he goes too far (like the “skull and cross bones” award he gives to OSAS teachers at his site).

    God Bless,
    Ben

  13. True,

    JNORM888

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: